It’s a big one, guys. For our silver anniversary of episodes, both Emily and Rachel are heading to New Jersey. First, Emily covers the Hindenburg disaster of 1937 (which has nothing to do with the Lindbergh baby and everything to do with baby grand pianos). Then, drumroll please, Rachel tells the frequently referenced story of John List / Bob Clark – who seems like the most boring human alive, but is really a vanishing family annihilator. Hopefully, you’re horrified.
Content/Trigger Warnings: violence
Transcript
Rachel 0:14
Hi, and welcome to verbal history. I’m Rachel Everett-Lozon
Emily 0:16
And I’m Emily Barlean. How’s it going, Rach?
Rachel 0:21
Good. I am so thankful we talk all the time. This is still a new part podcast. This is Episode 25 we’re gonna be very exciting.
Emily 0:31
It’s our quarter, centennial.
Rachel 0:35
quarter century No. Six months I don’t know. Happy anniversary. But we get so much love from people in our personal lives and who we’ve met through social media other morbid curious who sent us stories and nice words. And we’ve got to hear on Tick tock, which is very exciting. Go. Go fuck yourself hater. Our first hater. That’s how we know. We’ve made it now. But haters aside, we have a new patron. So Aaron, thank you. I know Aaron from my personal life, and I love her. And she’s the best. She’s the best.
Emily 1:20
Thank you, Erin. And really good timing, because we’re going to be dropping some new bonus content on Patreon. Starting this week, so all the better reason to join and area kudos having really good timing, and very good taste in podcasts, obviously,
Rachel 1:39
we are going to be adding cachaca we’re adding a new segment called where in the world is horrible history. So we are going to be playing up the travel part of this podcast a little bit more because it’s fun. Yeah. So we’ll be asking you periodically on social media for your stories. Travel stories are just interesting stories from places that we are going to go and then or have recently been. And we will talk about it for $5 and up patrons. And then Emily fuckin out of nowhere. Today, looking adorable, by the way, because we’ve Marco Polo all day. And she’s like, Hey, I figured out how to video record so we can put it up our live podcast recording or at least segments for our $10 not patrons and I was like, Coco Coco cool. I haven’t taken a shower today. I’m super hung over not it’s not going great. Over here. Um, so maybe next week, we will video record and tend to learn up patrons that to look forward to.
Emily 2:46
Maybe someday our $20 and up patrons will get to see us record even when we look like garbage. Which is probably like half the time for me. You look better most of the time.
Rachel 2:57
That’s sweet of you to say it’s most of the time that we don’t dress up for each other. My favorite podcasting shirt is a oversized pink sweatshirt with Ron Swanson space on it. And it says Woman of the Year Ron Swanson is now if you want to see that you’ve got to pay more.
Emily 3:16
I have a Ron Swanson t shirt. And it’s really it just says Ron fucking Swanson.
Rachel 3:25
I love Ron Smith. He’s
Emily 3:27
so good. Yes, but thank you. Thank you, Aaron for joining us on Patreon and Hinton to everyone. You should join us to
Rachel 3:34
patreon.com slash horrible history. Alright, Emily and I are both going to Jersey this week. She knows what I’m doing because it’s a big one. Yeah, but I don’t know what you’re doing. You’re going first so let’s I can do it. Yeah, actually, you do. I told you. I don’t remember. hungover as fuck, please tell me again.
Emily 3:59
Oh, Lord. Okay. as Rachel said, I am going to New Jersey this week, and I am headed to Manchester Township, which according to their website, is ocean County’s best kept secret. It’s like it’s a township. I mean, it’s a couple 1000 people it’s really small. It’s a secret
Rachel 4:20
secret Township.
Emily 4:21
It is minutes from Jersey Shore. So I’m gonna tell you about what our vacation to the shore would be like. First and foremost, we’re gonna need short skirt, orange spray tans, bouffant hair and like long neon colored fingernails
Rachel 4:39
gym tan laundry, right? I want to be sure that the day you did I never did
Emily 4:45
they too irritating for me. Yeah, yes. Well,
Rachel 4:50
but Okay, so
Emily 4:51
here’s something I didn’t know. I thought jersey shore was a town and like a one specific place. Sure. jersey shore is the shore
Rachel 5:01
of New Jersey. Yeah, it’s many places. It’s a whole shoreline, guys. Tommy Atlantic, its jersey shore. Yeah.
Emily 5:09
So lots of different beaches, some for families, some more party focus, that kind of thing. But of course, Manchester township is closest to Seaside Park, which is exactly the Jersey Shore that I was thinking of. Yeah, the Jersey Shore, Jersey Shore. Say that I want I’m fast.
Rachel 5:30
I want an airbrush t shirt that says yeah, something inappropriate. But in those Yes, where
Emily 5:38
I think colors, something about like Snuggie or the situation or those are the only names that I know.
Rachel 5:44
Yeah, it’ll be something that’s like, I’ve got a situation for you. And it just points down. God, no, please know that I’m joking. I’m a type three. I would never be seen like that in public, but I probably would sleep in a shirt like that. Yeah,
Emily 6:00
girl. Honestly, I have never seen an episode of Jersey Shore. I just know like the pop culture references to it. I picture the episode of It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, where they go to Jersey. And it’s like dirty and nasty. And they’re drinking vodka out of sunscreen bottles. And they get like insanely high and arrested. Oh, they go on one of the rides and D has an dreadlock or like braids in her hair. And one of her braids gets stuck in the top thing and then it drops and it like rips her hair out. So like oh my god. That’s what I picture. Just trash. Sorry, Jersey. Danny DeVito gets just drunk on rum ham because they soaked a ham and
Rachel 6:47
raw. Okay, I definitely have not seen that. I would remember
Emily 6:51
ROM ham and then he puts away in the water. And it’s a Wilson situation like yeah, it’s Oh, that’s fucking watch it. Susan. Probably like 10. I
Rachel 7:04
don’t know. I haven’t seen some of the later seasons. Yeah, I
Emily 7:07
should check them out. Yeah, they’re still going. It’s crazy. Anyway, I know. So following Hurricane Sandy, the boardwalk got all rebuilt, and they started pushing for more of a family friendly situation.
Rachel 7:23
Now I can’t say the word out like my T shirts. Yeah.
Emily 7:26
Instead of the situation they had before that very tanned man. They wanted a more family friendly situation. So they do like movie nights and concerts and that kind of thing. And they do have a roller coaster, which did end up in the water because of the hurricane. But they upgraded it and now it’s like this big thing called the Hydras. And it’s 72 foot vertical drop and like it’s pretty sweet man. Okay, you know how we like roller coasters? Yeah, we do. So it’s definitely still one of the busiest boardwalks of the shore. And so we could go there. Or if we wanted to get away from that we could head south to Island State Beach Park, which is a 10 mile stretch of unmarked and undeveloped beach. And so that would be very different than the whole Atlantic City kind of vibe. Or we can also go and get food and drink. There are some places that were made famous by the show karma and bamboo bar, I guess were like nightclubs, or on the show. They went bankrupt, they’re not there anymore. We could go to a place called the Beachcomber Bar and Grill, which is like a boardwalk hang out, and they have live bands on the weekends and stuff like that. So it’s fun. Yeah, I’m not sure I’m not 100% sure. I want to go to
Rachel 8:50
you know, I would like to go to Atlantic City. Yeah, at some point in my life that I’m in where in the world is horrible history. My dad actually lived in Jersey for quite a bit of time in his childhood. So he told me about some of the legends and some interesting places. And I googled, and actually some of them sound pretty cool. So I’m talking a little bit more about that for our patrons this week.
Emily 9:16
Yeah, I found a really, for that same segment, I found a really spooky story because they do have a lot of like, local legends like the Jersey Devil witches,
Rachel 9:27
yes. Yeah. That’s one of the stories My dad was telling me about. A story about the Jersey Devil.
Emily 9:33
Yes. So there’s a lot of like haunted roads and stuff. So very exciting. So let’s talk about a part of Jersey’s horrible history. The kind that does not involve Snooki because that’s also horrible, but we’re going a little
Rachel 9:46
farther back gay pre 1987 as is our custom. Yes,
Emily 9:51
we are going back to basics 1937 Okay. Obviously we are not alive on So it’s 1937. That’s the whole point. But anyone who was would remember this day very clearly. Okay, like September 11 2001, or November 22 1963, or December 7 1941. Like may 6 1937 is another day that lives in people’s brains, because images of disaster kind of tend to permanently get burned into people’s brains. Do you know which disaster happened on May 6 1937?
Rachel 10:34
I remember now, it’s not the one with the baby. It’s the one with the blimp. The Hindenburg disaster happened. Yes.
Emily 10:44
And on this day, yeah, I was texting Rachel about it. And I like told her that I was doing Hindenburg and she’s like, I think I know about that one. It’s the one with a baby. And I was like, that’s the Lindbergh baby. Close similar names.
Rachel 10:58
Yeah, that’s Yeah.
Emily 11:00
So this is short and sweet. There’s not actually all that much information about the Hindenburg disaster. But I wanted to do this because it’s horrible. And it’s memorable. And this episode is dropping on May 6 2021. Whoo. 84 years to the day since the disaster. And I love to I love to pull out anniversaries.
Rachel 11:24
We love alliteration and anniversaries.
Emily 11:26
Oh, which is also alliteration. Love. Exactly. So, on the evening of May 6 1937 spectators and reporters gathered at lakehurst Naval Air Station in New Jersey, to catch a glimpse of the cutting edge of air travel. The German airship elzie, one to nine, better known as the Hindenburg was landing. It was 804 feet long, which is more than three times the length of a Boeing 747. Wow. And only 80 feet shorter than the Titanic. So fucker was Holy shit. Booker was huge. And he was gonna go with the air. It was in the air. It was coming down out. Oh,
Rachel 12:10
yeah,
Emily 12:11
it was the largest aircraft ever built. It reached a maximum speed of 84 miles per hour. And a cruising speed of 78 miles per hour. So it wasn’t passed. I mean, faster than a car. Well, not my car, but well, a car guy, but not as fast as a plane. So for those watching, they’re seeing this giant silver blimp looking thing like being maneuvered silently toward this thing called a moring mast, which I never heard of before. A moring mast is like a structure that’s designed to allow for the docking of an airship outside of the airport hangar or airship hangar. Okay, so it’s like this little tower thing that I guess they like, connect to. So they can like tie the thing down? I don’t know, there was a picture of it. I’ll post a picture. But anyways, people who are watching this are sitting there thinking like this is the beginning of an era of modern aviation like my god lifts. Thing soon I can tell. or so before we talk about what happened. After that, let’s talk about this big silver miracle and where it came from and why. Okay, the very first experiments using hydrogen and helium to lift vehicles into the sky were conducted in the late 18th century, so well before that, but it took more than a century for the technology to become viable for commercial and millet military use. It was 1900 when Ferdinand Graf von zeplin launched his first airship, it was a rigid hold elzie one, although the elzie one was kind of like mixed success. There were later models developed in this like zeplin aircraft, which is what it was eventually called, became something that they started commissioning to produce an entire fleet of these airship blimp things for the German government. Okay, 1937 remember? Not a great time?
Rachel 14:25
Yeah, yeah. Remember? Not at
Emily 14:31
all. It was actually during World War One, that Germany use Zeppelin’s to conduct aerial bombing campaigns with London and Paris as the main targets. And so even though the rates weren’t like, especially destructive compared with, like, the bombings that were done by airplanes, they were effective at sewing fear. So which I again, the Germans love that. I’m German so I can say that sorry, Germany. Not Germany present. Germany pass.
Rachel 15:05
No comments.
Emily 15:07
Nervous laughter Okay.
Rachel 15:12
Now I’m a little bit German but not German enough to make fun of it. So I’ll just take a pass. I’ll just take a backseat on this one.
Emily 15:18
My family’s last name used to be Berlin. So I think I’m good. Okay, so this whole like sowing fear thing. These saplings would like appear without warning through the clouds and like loom in the sky. While panic civilians are like, Oh, what is that? You know? So so
Rachel 15:38
just so I’m getting a clear mental picture of zepplin doesn’t look like a blimp because blimps are not scary. Yeah, it’s super likely although like maybe maybe they’re like, ominous if they’re moving all of you know 70 miles an hour at the sky. Expecting one but I don’t see glimpses a scary mode of
Emily 15:58
transportation. It is. It’s like a big maybe it almost looks like a big torpedo. Like, I don’t know. No, it looks like okay to me. But it’s like metal and silver. And I don’t know. I agree. I wouldn’t I have used to look at and be like, Oh, it’s cute.
Rachel 16:18
Isn’t it that episode of friends where Ross and Chandler keep updating each other’s college like Facebook page, but it’s not a Facebook.
Emily 16:27
It’s one person
Rachel 16:28
every one person’s every year. You tell people Oh, man, that’s what I thought of when you told me you were doing blimps,
Emily 16:40
I’m gonna send you a picture of it. Okay, so I do think maybe as opposed to a blimp, it does look more like a giant missile bomb situation. It also looks like a blimp and you said it’s shaped like a bomb.
Rachel 16:59
I guess. Hey, like a text message? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can see that be a little scary. Cuz in my mind, blimps are very colorful. They look like I was gonna say clouds in the sky, and that I realized how terrifying that
Emily 17:16
Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, everyone nightmares. So, Winston Churchill dismissed the threat by posing these as enormous bladders of combustible and explosive gas. So he was like, pish posh. These things.
Rachel 17:36
Yeah, but that is also terrifying, right? I imagined your bladder, full of combustible gas. Just
Emily 17:43
use that terrifying load from the outside in.
Rachel 17:47
Yeah, spontaneous human combustion. That’s how it is.
Emily 17:50
So unfortunately, it did take two full years for the British to find the right ammunition to bring one of the Zeppelin’s down. And that ammunition was a burst of alternating incendiary and explosive bullets.
Rachel 18:05
So I got shot it down.
Emily 18:08
Yeah, shooter right down, but you have to have explosions and incendiary, which I think is fire right? I don’t know.
Rachel 18:16
Yes.
Emily 18:17
infirmary. I’m like, I’m not even sure if I’m saying this word, right. Yeah. And you send diary.
Rachel 18:26
Whatever Wikipedia said is what I believe.
Emily 18:30
So, after that war ended World War One, engineers turn their attention to building airships for long distance transportation, and so they decided they were going to launch the first trans Atlantic flight in 1919. And only 10 years later in 1928. The era of commercial airship travels seem to begin in earnest with this completion of the new like Graf Zeppelin, which was this massive airship capable of carrying dozens of passengers and their accommodations in a way similar to like, how it would be on a luxury ocean liner. So it really was like the Titanic of the sky. ominous and, yeah,
Rachel 19:17
yeah. Shadow shadow.
Emily 19:21
So for years, they had many like, well publicized demonstration flights they did in around the world tour in 1929. In 1931, they began regularly scheduled commercial service, making nonstop flights between Germany and South America. Wow. Now, in 1936, an even larger ship larger than the Graf Zeppelin began transatlantic service that was the Hindenburg. So the Hindenburg was like this massive thing that was you know, raining down fear on the British. It’s like they’re making it bigger. And so in its first year of operation, it carried hundreds of passengers across the ocean in 10 different round trips between the United States and Germany, and then seven trips between Germany and Brazil. Okay, so, a little bit of information about what the fuck this Hindenburg thing is. The fabric skin of the airship was covered with a paint that contained aluminum powder. That’s what gave it its silvery appearance. its tail fins were emblazoned with the swastikas of the Nazi regime.
Rachel 20:38
Not great.
Emily 20:39
Not great. Not my fave. Passenger accommodations included 25 cabins for two passengers each. A restaurant, a bar and a smoking lounge pressurized to keep any flammable gases from getting in because remember, this fucking thing is floating in the air on helium and hydrogen like or whatever. It’s like it’s TOEFL totally flammable you like come on.
Rachel 21:09
I’m sorry. I’m laughing. I don’t actually know what happened in this story, which I feel I should because I know it’s a common horrible history story, but I’m picturing that scene and Zoot Leander where they they start has gasoline to fight and then somebody lights a cigarette and they just it’s like, you fucking die in a freak gasoline fight.
Emily 21:37
Gasoline fight. That’s the best scene where they’re just like, Oh, it’s so good. awaking up Baca song it’s playing,
Rachel 21:47
and then it slows down. If you haven’t seen dealing, they’re so good.
Emily 21:55
Okay, so they did pressurize the smoking lounge to keep any of the flammable gases from in the main cabin into that room so that the Plimpton bug can explode. Sure, another thing that they had to be wary of was this fucker crashing because it was too heavy. Because again, it’s it’s floating. It’s not quite like airplanes, which not gonna pretend to understand how the fuck that works. Every time I’m like, this is a modern Marvel,
Rachel 22:27
you’re gonna die. How is this happening? I don’t understand air technology. No, maybe there. Although I do make my husband listen to some of some bits of our podcasts because he’s an aerospace engineer. And he’s like, rah, rah. Emily knows nothing about airplanes. So like she admits it. She said don’t mansplain it to her. Don’t aerospace engineer splain it.
Emily 23:01
Okay, so it needed to stay lightweight. And so to meet the ship’s weight requirement, all the furnishings were really light, they made everything as light as possible. So the cabin beds were even made of aluminum. Like everything was aluminum. So it was super lightweight. Not steel. Yeah, everything like that. But, but the ship’s owners had a lightweight baby grand piano in it is like
Rachel 23:27
that’s necessary. That’s just luxury track.
Emily 23:32
We can’t allow you to have a normal bed frame. But we will give you a smoking lounge and a baby grand piano.
Rachel 23:40
Only the necessities here on this. Exactly. This clown of the sky.
Emily 23:48
So as I said the Hindenburg, this big monster bomb. I’m like it’s a bomb shaped bomb essential man with people. Yeah, had been designed to use helium for its lift, which I’m also like, we’re all the people inside. Like,
Rachel 24:04
I don’t know why I’m talking. So like that. Like, that’s just to say that we can figure it out later.
Emily 24:11
Okay, but Americans had export restrictions on helium at the time. And so the airship in May of 37 was actually filled with flammable hydrogen instead of helium.
Rachel 24:26
Sure. So
Emily 24:29
rewind may of 1937, the Hindenburg loaded up 36 passengers in Germany, and they headed towards jersey. And so the plan was for them to get to this landing. And then representatives from American Airlines would pick them up and take them to Newark, and they would catch like connecting continental airplane flights. But some things went a little bit wrong. The Hindenburg Atlantic crossing was relatively uneventful. There were some headwinds, but like it was okay. But that slowed us landfall over Boston by about an hour. And then once they got to the New York area, thunderstorms in bad weather kind of like thwarted the schedule in the early afternoon. And so to avoid the storm, the captain of the Hindenburg, Max press, re charted his course, over Manhattan and out into the Atlantic to wait until the storm blew through. And so the Hindenburg flew over New York City on its way out to sea. And it was said like to have created such a sensation. People are running out of their houses in their offices and their stores to see this like, world’s largest ship overhead.
Rachel 25:43
Sure, just like with the Titanic,
Emily 25:45
yeah, yeah. Except it was like, Oh, my God, it’s in the sky. It’s a modern Marvel.
Rachel 25:53
Yeah, well emphasise 1937. So your only source of entertainment? Is the rain happening around you? Yeah, you actually had to pay attention to things that were not in a tiny screen in front of your face. sounds
Emily 26:08
terrible.
Rachel 26:10
It that’s. Okay, so
Emily 26:13
by 622, the storms had passed, and Captain press ordered his ship to Lake Hurst. almost a half day late, but by 7pm on May 6 1937, the Hindenburg was finally on its final approach to Lake hearse, which is in Manchester Township. Manchester. Is that what I said? Okay, whatever township I’d said before that place in Jersey,
Rachel 26:36
yeah. Like now we can’t go to Jersey because they hate you butchered our history and every now you did. You did this on purpose. I will never go to Atlantic City. Yeah. awareness, guys. Oh, let’s still be wearing masks, you won’t fucking suck.
Emily 26:54
So unfortunately, the winds began to shift. And Captain press was having to make really sharp left turns on approach to be able to like, aim towards this mass that he was supposed to aim toward. So then also to manage the Hindenburg propeller thrust. He was struggling with that, because he had to keep the airships nose directed right at the mass that they needed to dock on. So twice, the airship began to drop in altitude. And had to make these hard left turns into the wind because they were like, Oh, shit, you know? So we knew it was gonna be a really challenging landing. But I mean, what are you gonna do? You have to fucking figure it out. So at 295 feet, so they are still 295 feet in the air. They dropped their lines down to the ground, right as a light rain began to fall. And then, with the Hindenburg finally tied into the ground winches, so they tied it down, things are finally starting to get calm. At 7:25pm. The Hindenburg caught fire, and flames burst from somewhere near the stern of the airship. Although eyewitness accounts of exactly where the flames first emerge do vary. So some say that it was near the airships top kind of like they’re near the stabilizing fin. And others say that it burst through the airports ports or the airships port side. So there are a bunch of people there watching the Hindenburg land, because it was like you rake
Rachel 28:37
on the ground or being tied in
Emily 28:39
Yeah, right. Well, and and like you said, people didn’t have anything to fucking do at this time. So they literally gathered to watch it kind of like I guess, when a rocket ship goes off, you know, like, people are like watching.
Rachel 28:50
We still do that. Yeah, yeah, it’s fucking cool. Yeah. Unfortunately, there’s
Emily 28:55
all these people gathered and now watching this thing fucking on fire in front of them. And so the flaming tail starts to drift down toward the earth, which just helps the flames move forward through the different like hydrogen holding cells toward her bow. And then she just began to fall to the ground. When the stern hit the Earth, the fire burst through the airships nose cone, and basically exploded the whole thing. And the entire disaster was over in less than 40 seconds.
Rachel 29:33
Oh my god. Yeah. How many people and grand pianos? Sorry,
Emily 29:41
I was almost gonna say too soon, but it was like literally at four years. I’m like, No,
Rachel 29:47
I’m not trying to be insensitive to the victims. Sorry if it came off that way, but 100%
Emily 29:52
of the grand pianos on Thank you
Rachel 29:54
word, that’s what I needed to know. Yes. Luckily,
Emily 29:57
the people actually fared a little better. Have the 97 people aboard 36 passengers and set 61 crew. Only 35 were killed 13 passengers and 22 crew members. And then one person on the ground was killed, presumably hit by debris or was the person like standing close or whatever. So out of the possible 97 people only 36 fatalities happens. Yeah.
Rachel 30:27
Which obviously still are terrible. And it could have been a lot worse. Yeah, for real.
Emily 30:33
So the entire disaster was captured on newsreel and narrated by a radio news reporter named her Morrison. And he uttered a really infamous phrase where he says, oh, the humanity as the Hindenburg crashed.
Rachel 30:50
Oh my god. Is that where that phrase started?
Emily 30:52
Yeah. Wow, I didn’t just Yeah, like apparently have usually Oh, the humanity. Some group of people will be like, Oh, that’s from the Hindenburg blimp crash or whatever. So
Rachel 31:02
yeah, who knows they were in their late 90s. Nearly early hundred’s Yeah.
Emily 31:09
The exact cause of the tragedy isn’t actually known for certain the most likely theory is that a discharge of like atmospheric electricity, which I think is a fancy way of saying lightning media, like ignited the airships hydrogen gas cells, because it was full of fucking flammable hydrogen gas. So like, what do you expect?
Rachel 31:30
Yeah, but isn’t helium also flammable fuel?
Emily 31:34
Yeah, it’s fucking flamable stop filling things and people with it anyway.
Rachel 31:39
filling your people with damage.
Emily 31:43
But some Germans did wonder if the airship was victim to sabotage, saboteur, but the possibility of foul play was ruled out by investigators in the United States. So if the United States were the saboteurs, then that could be a thing, but we’re gonna pretend like that’s not,
Rachel 32:04
you know, conspiracy theories about shockingly enough,
Emily 32:09
zepplin flights did not end immediately after this disaster.
Rachel 32:14
People still wanted to get on the fucking planet, right? They’re like, I
Emily 32:17
still want to see that baby grand. But by the late 1930s, passenger airplanes, like greatly improved and reliability and speed and operating costs and everything like that. And so you
Rachel 32:32
could buy life insurance right at the airport, right spot.
Emily 32:35
So as they got safer and more popular, the airships kind of slow speeds and vulnerability to weather and you know, innate flammability rendered the unusual aircraft obsolete. Baja, there were survivors of the disaster as we just talked about, and in 2019, but two years ago, the last survivor passed away. And so I found an interesting article about him. I’m just gonna read a little bit of that because it’s fascinating and he was the last one. His name was Warner Gustaf donor, and he died at the age of 90 at a hospital and Laconia, New Hampshire on November 8 2019. So, Werner are probably Verner. If I’m being it’s a W. So it’s probably a Wii U sound.
Rachel 33:31
Yeah, if it’s German, yeah.
Emily 33:33
He was eight years old. On May 6 1937. When the airship went up in flames. His sister and father were among the 36 people who were killed. But other members of his family did survive. This is a quote from his son, Bernie. It basically robbed him of his father and sister and left him with lasting scars. He had one all down his leg and he had nine skin graft operations, and one of his ears was badly damaged. He was so badly burned, he was blind for many months in 2017. In an interview with The Associated Press, the survivor Verner actually recounted what happened when the airship, quote the pride of Nazi Germany, arrived from Germany and hovered above the New Jersey airfield. So he said, we were close to a window, and my mother took my brother and threw him out of it. She grabbed me and fell back and then threw me out. She tried to get my sister, but she was too heavy. And my mother decided to get out. By the time the zeplin was nearly on the ground. So his mother and the brother she throughout survived and he did as well but the sister and the father died that’s so traumatic, which I’m not trying to be judging. Like, obviously no clue what what it’s like to be in the situation. But it’s kind of was shocking to me to hear that the mom couldn’t get the daughter out. And so it was just like, okay, sorry. And like pieced out. Now granted, she had two kids on the ground, so she had to think about her surviving children, right. But you often hear of like, your parents who sacrifice themselves. I just can’t imagine the mother not being like, I will fight until I get this kid, you know, or whatever. I wonder
Rachel 35:26
if she thought because she was closer to the Father. That Okay, you get her? I’ll get them. Yeah, yeah. Because and also, these are split fighter flight decisions. You’re not using your prefrontal cortex. Okay, what’s gonna happen in five minutes? You’re just thinking get everybody out.
Emily 35:43
Everything’s on fire. Yeah. Okay, so there was some lasting trauma from the disaster beyond his actual physical scars, obviously, an emotional trauma. For example, His son said that he never liked pancakes his whole life because they were served at the hospital where he was taken to receive treatment after the crash. Oh, that’s heartbreaking. I know. I love pancakes. Okay, I’m not because of that. No, JK. According to his obituary, he was born in Darmstadt, Germany, spent his childhood in Mexico City. He married his wife Elan in July of 1967. And in 1984, the family moved to the United States, where he worked for General Electric as an electrical engineer. He eventually retired in 1999, from the New England electric system. Bernie his son said he wants his father to be remembered as a good family man who believed in education of his kids and a strong work ethic. And that is the short horrible story of the Hindenburg disaster
Rachel 36:54
nicely told Emily and I with air and our new patron, Katie or another, our existing patron, we play a game see
Emily 37:02
become a patron and you may be able to play games with
Rachel 37:05
evil apples with us, which is like Cards Against Humanity. And I’ve seen the Hindenburg disaster come up as a card and felt really stupid for not knowing what it was. So now we can all play it and know what it is. Exactly. Now
Emily 37:16
when you play.
Rachel 37:18
Like, hey, that’s a stupid love it. Alright, so today I’m taking us to Westfield, New Jersey for 25th episode extravaganza. So first, we’re headed to yester cades, which is a vintage gamers dream. There are old school games like Pac Man, but there’s also cool and air hockey and big comfy couches for playing video games like Mario Kart win. So I think that would be really fun. I love that after we worked up a sweat from the only exercise that sounds good to be right now, we would treat ourselves to some Indian food at spice bazaar. Apparently, Westfield New Jersey restaurants are a cultural melting pot. So there are tons of locally owned restaurants with some international flavor. And you know that neither one of us can resist a little chicken tikka masala.
Emily 38:13
We just I had it on Friday night. It was so good.
Rachel 38:16
That my husband my husband’s birthday is tomorrow in real time. But it was a couple of days ago by the time people are hearing this and he wants Indian food for dinner. And I’m like from that place that we got. Yeah, you’re gonna get that super spicy stuff because that show was hot. We’ll see. We’ll see what he gets. We’ll probably we’ll get a few things. Enjoy the parks. Yeah, well, his birthday you have to put up with Kelsey on the couch. And of course, happy birthday. Happy birthday fucker. Get out of the picture. Have you smell I guess? Of course, after dinner, we would head over to no Spino which is a cute little neighborhood wine shop. And if we timed it, right? They do free beer tastings on Friday nights and free wine tastings on Saturday nights. Oh my God, we could do both. We would have to do both free is the name of the game. Yeah, well and like tasting beer in line of arcade. Um, the real reason we’re going to Westfield New Jersey is something that we have referenced multiple times on this podcast and the time is finally here. drumroll let’s talk john fucking list. It’s time okay. I’m so excited. Honestly, this man seems like the most boring guy in the world to me if you don’t know that he’s a vanishing family. Annihilator spoilers. So let’s start our story in Bay City, Michigan, in which Little Johnny was an only child and a no mama’s boy. It was a pretty traditional family. John’s father worked in his mind faced him. John’s friends and neighbors would later describe him as a kid with a personality that blended into the background. So that he’s vanilla as fuck.
Emily 40:14
Just picture him little glasses, combed hair over to one side.
Rachel 40:20
He’s like ralphie and a Christmas story but without without the personality.
Emily 40:24
That’s what I was exactly. picturing. Yeah. They have wire rimmed glasses for sure. Oh,
Rachel 40:30
100%
Emily 40:31
not cool enough for a thick rim.
Rachel 40:33
Yeah. As a young adult, john lifts served in World War Two, and Korea in the army. And then he went to college in Michigan, where he got his bachelor’s and then his master’s in Business Administration.
Emily 40:44
It’s like the basic bitch version of a man like a totem and then I got my MBA.
Rachel 40:51
Yeah. And he fulfilled his dream. He became a CPA. What kind of fucking offense to CPAs. But when you’re a little boy, it’s like, I want to be it. How did
Emily 41:04
okay. I wanted to be an accountant when I was when I was like, Well, first of all, when I was in like, 10th grade, I thought I wanted to become a market researcher. I don’t think I actually knew what that was. Sure. I think I just read about it in like a career book. And then I was dead set. I was going to be an accountant. And then I went to college, and I sat through one accounting class with Professor over Mueller, and I was like, nope, fuck this noise. And then I went into communication.
Rachel 41:39
Yep, yep, way better. Oh, God. Now, john lewis just got it all suits a knowledge of math. A dream job, apparently, a briefcase with gold lock with his initials stretched right into it. And then, in October of 1951, he met Helen Taylor while bowling with some of his army buddies. He bolts to cables. He’s he is vanilla, we will fucking get into it. Helen is one of the most tragic figures in the story to me. Her sister Jean had dragged her out to the bowling alley to cheer her up, as Helen had just buried her husband Marvin, who had died six months previously in Korea. So this was the 50s. Helen had gotten married young, and she had never learned any skills outside of how to be a wife and a mother. And she was left not only grieving for herself, but taking care of her nine year old daughter. So Jean decides to play matchmaker for her sister who obviously needs to find a man ASAP. Because it’s the 50s and like I said, ladies can’t do so yet. Vanilla john is making eyes at Helen. So Jean, pulls him aside and warns him that her sister, so went out. And she has a baby, and it broke but still a nine year old. She sees john as well groomed and courteous and a little bit of a doormat and she warns him. Helens a bit of a firecracker is pretty careless with money, and she needs a man who’s going to be able to take charge. But john threw his vanilla caution to the wind and asked her out anyway.
Emily 43:30
He’s like, I’m a CPA, I can budget for us.
Rachel 43:34
I’m a Rebel Without a Cause. Do you want to see my card?
Emily 43:38
It’s printed in Times New Roman on the card.
Rachel 43:42
Just boring. JOHN list comma CBA. It’s a white card. It’s a white card with black times zero. That’s exactly what it looks like. So this incredibly religious mama’s boy was very into Helen. They started having what I’m assuming was very polite, mild mannered sex. And Helen got pregnant. So of course john married her. They elope to any small Lutheran church with only two witnesses. Helen sister Jean and get this her husband Jean. exchanged a deed.
Emily 44:24
There are people in my hometown that I’m pretty sure we’re both named Terry. It was like Terry and Terry who were married. Yeah,
Rachel 44:30
Terry with the why and Terry with an eye.
Emily 44:34
If I was named Terry, and I was swiping on Bumble and I I would just instantly swipe left on someone named Terry. I do it already with like anyone named Steve.
Rachel 44:45
Yeah.
Emily 44:46
Or Jesse or Ryan like I’m like, I don’t want to date someone who has the same name as my brother or my father or my terrible acts like no
Rachel 44:55
I almost swiped left on Robert, my husband because I had a co worker who had just recently left with that name who was like a little creepy. So it was almost triggering. But you’re right. My dad’s name is Keith, I never sweat right and Keith because you just can’t know too weird. But gene is Helen sister g ad. And male gene is g e n e. And these two genes weren’t even the weirdest part of the wedding because pretty soon after the wedding, Helen told john, she actually wasn’t pregnant. Oh, crap. Yeah, she probably that’s why it was because she really needed to be married to take care of herself and her nine year old like you got to do what you got to do is safeties, there aren’t opportunities for women like there are now she tells him it was a mistake. But john didn’t believe her. He thought for sure he had been trapped into Mary Helen. And he he wanted to get a divorce probably speculation but couldn’t bring himself to ask for it because he was so religious. So regardless, john and Helen and nine year old Brenda became a family because that was the plan. And john list never deviated from a point. Oh, so get bachelors, check, get masters, check, meet lady check, get married, check. Have a Baby. She’s nine years old and they want to have baby so almost check. Divorce is not part of the fucking plan. Never, never. At this point. John’s father is no longer living and his mother Alma was pretty lonely. She visited him frequently when he was in college, which is why we’re
Emily 46:45
so she would teach a stay in the bunk bed in his daughter.
Rachel 46:50
I felt that whatever it was, she would take the bus to spend the weekend with him. So I’m imagining guess I’m imagining there was a big spoon little spoon situation going on. That’s so weird. It’s so weird. And when john brings his new bride Helen to meet Alma for the first time, she did not hide her immediate disdain for Ellen J. Alma started telling all of her friends that Helen was a desperate widow who had trapped her little Johnny into marriage and that he could have done much better. So yeah, needless to say, Helen was not a huge fan of Alma. So 1955 the lists are living in a suburban Michigan, things are going pretty well. Helen gives birth to the couple’s first child together. Patricia, who would later will go by Patty. And Alma was so happy to have a grandchild, even if you know she was born of that desperate widow, whatever. JOHN Frederick, their second came in October 1956. So pretty quickly after and then Frederick Michael came in August 1950. really can’t
Emily 47:57
get over that Frederick Mamie john Frederick Frederick. Yeah, I
Rachel 48:01
wonder if that was his dad’s fame. But I didn’t.
Emily 48:04
I didn’t look or his dad and his mom, same way. Jane,
Rachel 48:10
Jane and Jane. So even though john enjoyed his boring management job, Helen is not exactly June cleaver. She is a member of three different book clubs and enjoyed sipping scotch and reading on the couch, which honestly I’m into. Yeah, but john list was not she was supposed to be taking care of the children and doing all of the housework This is not part of
Emily 48:36
the plant and making jello salads and other hassles like Lutheran women do. Yeah. Where are the tater tots get the soup supper going, lady? Yeah.
Rachel 48:49
The family moves to Kalamazoo and the late 50s. JOHN enrolls them all in a Lutheran Church, or maybe early 60s at this point, with three supergun children and the Brenda at this point is a teenager. Hello, nice. Yeah, but Helen decides that getting those little heathens dressed and ready and sitting quietly in churches too much. So she stops going, and she has john bring the kids to church solo, which of course he’s resentful as fuck. But Helen is killing it. In my humble mom’s opinion. She uses Sunday mornings to sleep in and then she makes a huge breakfast for her family so that they can all eat it after church. Oh, that’s kind of nice. I think so too. Helen was suffering from postpartum depression. She had been taking beds, seeing a psychiatrist and drinking a lot, which not a great combination, but I thought I could get and it happens a lot. Yeah. Eventually, Brenda moves out. But Helen still has these three little kids who are close in age and a weird ass husband. And in my opinion, she’s doing her best. But john didn’t understand Or empathize much with Helens mental health, as sociopaths are known to do. So it’s said he bought her jewelry and other expensive shit, which not only didn’t improve her mental health, but increased his resentment of her since they were already living
Emily 50:16
beyond their means. So he created a problem and then was upset about correct, which is like every white guy. Sorry, white guys.
Rachel 50:30
Yeah,
Emily 50:31
it’s your turn to get shit.
Rachel 50:33
Yes. So john decides that instead of having a conversation with his wife about her mental health, and her spending, because you know, she’s adding some stuff to cart to make herself feel better, which honestly, say
Emily 50:49
$45 a chain, so you know what, yeah,
Rachel 50:52
it happens. But he decides he’s just going to try to make more money to catch up with her spending, because you know, that’s how it works, right? Like, it’s not that when you get a raise, and you have more money that you’re like, well, more money to spend on things. You just match it with me? No, that’s not how it works. So he gets some job hunting and eventually he gets a job as Vice President and comptroller at First National Bank in Westfield, New Jersey. Wow. Hmm. It sounds fancy comptroller. I don’t know what a comptroller is.
Emily 51:25
I have worked at places that had a comptroller, but that was an accounting job. So maybe controllers the same he’s a trans sponsor,
Rachel 51:33
obviously, he’s a sponsor. Not even at this point, the list by the infamous 19 room mansion in Westfield, which is Helens what Yeah, they
Emily 51:49
were in money trouble already and then bought the mansion.
Rachel 51:52
Emily, he’s a comptroller now when he got a
Emily 51:56
job under the impression that it was opposite like First they were doing okay, and then they started Oh, my God.
Rachel 52:02
Yeah, they already Helen already was spending to deal with her mental health. And john was like, I don’t want to talk to you about your fucking postpartum depression. So if you’re at all ready, yeah. Um,
Emily 52:14
it’s anything up appearances thing for sure.
Rachel 52:17
100%. And he thinks, okay, this beautiful big house, which is Helens dream house will make her happy. And then she won’t have mental health issues anymore. Because that’s how it works. Just keep buying shit don’t see a therapist or anything,
Emily 52:31
then she’ll let me have more missionary style sex with her
Rachel 52:36
has a missionary Mondays. At first, everything’s going well. John’s job is good. And the kids are adjusting well at school. Patti, who’s now in high school is even making a ton of friends and doing theater. But of course, like all of the stories on this podcast shits about to hit the fan. If I haven’t already made this abundantly clear. JOHN list is socially awkward as well as boring if you forget the fact that he’s a family Annihilator. Yeah, he’s weird with the neighbors, who he invites over to play like war board games. And then he takes the games way too seriously, and often wants to play on the side of the Nazis. So we got a nail.
Emily 53:22
I was about to say, I am relating a little too much to john list. And then you said the Nazi thing and I like new Europe. Take it all back. Hey, do
Rachel 53:32
you want to play some games? All right, you sit down with your little visor.
Emily 53:39
I flipped the table. Sophomore year of college, I lived in one of those dorms where it’s like four people in a like house kind of apartment situation. And I forced my three roommates to play a full game of Monopoly with me. Which I of course, won because it wasn’t until two years ago that I lost monopoly for the first time in my life. But we stayed up till like 330 in the morning, and they didn’t talk to me for like two days.
Rachel 54:07
Yeah, I’ve absolutely in my younger days been known to flip over a table a board. Yeah, I absolutely. My family will still make fun of me for things like that. And it’s been probably 20 years since I’ve done it. But they remember bird and their brains. Oh, yeah.
Emily 54:24
There’s like a meme or a tweet or something where it’s like me after playing Monopoly and it’s monopoly flipped over, whatever. Anytime that circulates on the internet. I get tagged in it like 50 times from like, it’s Yeah, and I’m like good luck yourselves.
Rachel 54:37
Yeah, ya know what, it’s not just a game.
Emily 54:40
Maybe you should consider nailing the board down. Hmm,
Rachel 54:43
maybe maybe I will. If we ever played together. No, I value our friendship. Let’s never play together. Never, never. Okay, so this is also a guy who thinks financial status is a big part of what makes him a man and in order to afford the beautiful mansion. It’s reluctantly taking some money from his mom, Alma, who’s now living with the family. And remember, all my Helen, we’re not super close still, which led to further deterioration of Helens mental health. She’s at home. her kids are older, almost, they’re living on the second third story. They’re just kind of avoiding each other. It’s weird. Her husband’s still weird and boring and isolating the neighbors and he goes to work like,
Emily 55:26
next. Oh, she’s home alone. Well, she’s home not alone. But with the mother in law. I
Rachel 55:31
think she’s trash.
Emily 55:32
Yeah. Who never speaks her. She’s sad. Because she has chemical depression in her brain issues. And she can’t go get a job and she has no money to spend. Okay, yeah. Yeah, that sounds terrible.
Rachel 55:48
Yes, and it’s gonna get worse spoilers. Then, John’s job wants him to work with people, numbers and spreadsheets. The bank asked john to start to expand their customer base. And guess what? That’s not part of the fucking plan.
Emily 56:08
Do you see this list? There’s nothing about people on this list.
Rachel 56:11
Nothing only numbers
Emily 56:12
list makes lists.
Rachel 56:15
And after about a year, john list does not get more comfortable performing the tasks that his job demands of him. He’s not flexible at all. And he gets fired. And he tells no one. He applies for all sorts of jobs. he borrows the money from Alma to keep up with the big ass mortgage. And then in the meantime, this factor gets stress passed his brown bag lunch, Jim assuming is like tuna fish boring, but also makes people uncomfortable. Swimming egg salad, egg salad. Oh, it’s for sure. Egg Salad. And then he drives to the train station. He sits there, reads books all day, then drives home pretending like he’s been at work the entire time.
Emily 57:00
God That sounds horrible to me. Yes. I like to have a day of like sitting around and doing nothing and reading every once in a while, like
Rachel 57:08
a day, every day.
Emily 57:11
And hear what unless you’re reading Harry Potter, like I don’t know. But even that’s done in a week.
Rachel 57:16
Yeah. JOHN gets another vice president job after about six months, but it’s a drastic pay cut. And the company relocated, I think to New York. But john refused to leave the house at Westfield because telling his dream house or I don’t know what what story he told himself. So he gets fired again. And then finally he accepts another sales position. mutual funds, which still doesn’t make as much money as the first baking gig, but at least it’s something but it’s sales and he’s not good at sales people. They’re a prop. Yeah, for for a journalist. They absolutely are. Helen is really struggling at this point. She’s really battling depression, she spends more days in bed than not in bed. She’s also continuing to engage in a lot of retail therapy. And of course, john does not tell her that they don’t have the money to spend. So he just lets her do it while he silently builds resentment. This is time where the man doesn’t let the lady see the checkbook, you know. Then Helen gets diagnosed with a fatal neurological condition. I forgot about that. It turns out Helen had contracted syphilis unknowingly from her first husband. And as we know, untreated syphilis bucks with your brain.
Emily 58:39
And she’d had it untreated for like fucking 20 years. Yes.
Rachel 58:43
Wow. Highland sister Jeanne talked to john about putting Helen in a care facility. But of course, john was too proud to that. That would be people would know about our problems yet. And to add insult to injury, his daughter Patti was engaging in normal teenage behaviors. She snuck out of the house to meet a friend for some loitering, and they got picked up by a cop. So of course their parents were notified.
Unknown Speaker 59:13
No john loss
Rachel 59:15
is shaved. He silently drove her home. And then when they got home, he screamed at Patty told her she was out of control. B called her a slut said she was going to hell. And he ominously shouted quote, You leave me no choice.
Emily 59:35
I’m sorry that the quiet car ride home. I got like a chill down my spine like yeah, that’s worse than being yelled at. But You leave me no choice period. Like, right now. I’m gonna be sleeping with one eye open.
Rachel 59:51
Yes. And obviously Patti was freaked out about this. She was pretty close with her theater teacher at Ileana. Oh, She told him that she was scared of her dad and that he was going to kill her. Oh my god, I don’t think they had the same mandatory reporting statutes in the early 70s. As we have now. So Ed didn’t tell anybody about how these fears that brings us to fall 1971 john list is spiraling. He can’t save his family souls from eternal damnation. Obviously, that’s the main reason he has to do something. Not because he’s incapable of holding a steady job or communicating with his wife or paying his mortgage. It’s just that damnation thing. That’s all.
Emily 1:00:39
Yeah, everyone’s damned.
Rachel 1:00:41
That’s that’s the reason by November 1971, john list only has one option. suicide, you say no, no, no, not suicide, then he would risk his own immortal soul. But he could kill his family, and then they would go to heaven. And john would be reunited with them one day, don’t worry, they’d forgive him. And then he did the only thing he could to make sure that their souls were saved. Hmm,
Emily 1:01:11
what a nice guy.
Rachel 1:01:14
So gross to me, so. So john found two revolvers in his home. One was they were both like antiques. They were old guns. One was from his father, and one that so his father handed down to one to him, and then the other one he had bought after serving in World War Two as kind of a keepsake. So all he had to buy was the ammo. And he scheduled the killings, he scheduled the killings
Emily 1:01:41
left there on the calendar, like, circled in red kill everyone,
Rachel 1:01:47
literally. My next line is in my mind, he writes it on a desk calendar, but probably just mentally scheduled it for November 9 1970 bunches this.
Emily 1:01:57
While he’s got a lot of preparations to make.
Rachel 1:01:59
Clearly he is part of the plan. He doesn’t deviate from the plan. November 9, starts out like any other day, john makes breakfast for the kids and send them to school. When Helen comes downstairs, she’s drinking coffee at the kitchen table, munching on a little toast. I’m imagining they didn’t really talk to each other that much at this point. So it’s not super weird to Helen, when john goes to the garage, gets his revolvers and sticks them in his pocket. Then he goes back to the kitchen and shoots Helen execution style in the back of the head. At least I didn’t see it coming. She died instantly. Then he went up to the third floor apartment where Alma lived. She asked john what the loud noise was, and he said, Why don’t you go look out the window while I go check things out. With her back turned, john shot Alma in the head, reasoning to himself that knowing her daughter in law and grandchildren had died, would have been too stressful for the old woman to cope with.
Emily 1:02:59
Oh, sure. He’s doing her a disservice. Okay, he didn’t want to have to confess to anyone’s face that he did something wrong.
Rachel 1:03:07
Yeah. JOHN used to sleeping back to drag Helens body from the kitchen to the ballroom. Yes, this place had a fucking ballroom, he was unable to move almost body down the stairs. So he left her in the third floor hallway. Then john cleaned up the murder sites. He got up the blood in the brain matter. And obviously this made him hungry. So he made a sandwich and sat at the table. The same table at which he had shot his wife earlier that day. What kind of sandwich Do you think that was? What are you hungry for after murdering the family if you’re the most boring white dude in them in the world? Because I haven’t paid for a Bologna on white bread kind of guy.
Emily 1:03:51
Yes. I was just thinking that maybe a craft slice single but
Rachel 1:03:57
may only be feeling fancy. Yeah, well. Yeah, yeah. So as one does in the middle of a busy day of murdering your family, john takes care of some administrative shit. He starts telling people that Helen’s mother is sick. So he’s going to send her and the kids to North Carolina. And that’s why he needs to stop the mail and cancel the milk delivery. And he tells the kids schools that they’ll be out for a few weeks. And then he goes to the bank and takes out almost money about $2,000. Okay, administrative shit out of the way back to the killings.
Emily 1:04:36
He just like calls people is like, Hey, I’m sending the hell into her mom. They’re like, Who is this?
Rachel 1:04:42
Yeah, you haven’t talked to us for years. JOHN. It’s me. JOHN list. You know, you deliver my milk every Tuesday. So Patti, who typically worked after school was sick that day. So after school, she called john to have her pick him up, which is not part of the plan how did she so john shot 16 year old Patty in the back of the head as they walked from the laundry room to the kitchen. Then john picked up 13 year old Fred from his after school job and shot him in the same way that he had shot Patty walk. It’s so
Emily 1:05:20
creepy. how he’s scheduled that so precisely that he can do each one solo. No stress, like, don’t have to worry about one of them being like, Oh my god, what are you doing? Like?
Rachel 1:05:34
Yeah, gross. Yeah. And lastly, john drove to 15 year old John’s soccer game, he watched the game and cheered for his son drove him home, and attempted to shoot him the same way that he had with everyone else. But little Johnny turned around mid shot and was shot in the chest. Because that’s not part of the plan. JOHN panicked, and he shot his head multiple times. So many times that he probably had to take a pause to reload his revolver.
Emily 1:06:09
So do we think that it’s really because it was just like, Oh, I’m surprised that this deviated or was there some like special issue with john that he? It was more personal. You know, I
Rachel 1:06:25
would really think that Patti was the most personal from things I’ve read because you know, she was a theater and he was most worried about personal theater kids. He then shave and probably smoked pot a couple of times because it’s really sad. Oh my god, normal teenage rebellion. What do we do? But I think it probably was this like, I have to follow the plan. I have to follow the plan. This isn’t part of the plan. I picture him as a very OCD type of person.
Emily 1:06:55
Maybe he shot little john in the chest and then he was still alive.
Rachel 1:07:01
Yeah, that’s what happens you wouldn’t die as he didn’t die right away. That’s
Emily 1:07:04
it. And then he was like, I can see him just be like, oh my god. Oh
Rachel 1:07:07
my god, like right cuz he thought they were just gonna be
Emily 1:07:10
shot and just like unloading. Yeah, like I got to make sure he’s dead now.
Rachel 1:07:15
Right. He did not die right away. that’s accurate. But the reload. That’s kind of weird. It feels like overkill, for sure. But I don’t know the details because the only one who witnessed it is a murderer. Yeah. After killing his entire family, john cleaned up more blood and more brain matter and moved his kids bodies using the sleeping bag to the ballroom with Helens body. Then he creepily cut out his face of all of the family photos and wrote a 10 page confession letter to his pastor. Oh my god pages that poor pastor. He infamously wrote in this letter that his mother’s body was in the third floor hallway. She was too heavy to move which rude unnecessary shade.
Emily 1:08:00
She’s a fatty bet so so I can get her down the stairs.
Rachel 1:08:04
I could move on. Yep, the
Emily 1:08:06
the effort it would have to take to cut your face out of every single picture. Not just take the pictures, burn the pictures to leave the photos. Hang them back up on the wall with a little circle cut out.
Rachel 1:08:22
That is so weird. It is the creepiest fucking detail to me. so creepy then exhausted by being a fucking murderer. He ate dinner and went to bed and the house in which he had just killed everyone. A bland chicken breast with only salt and pepper.
Emily 1:08:40
Yeah, and some broccoli. And a glass of milk.
Rachel 1:08:43
She I was thinking below. Oh, strike you as a meatloaf guy.
Emily 1:08:48
He does or like a salsbury tuna casserole.
Rachel 1:08:52
Yeah, yeah, whatever the most.
Emily 1:08:55
Part A steak is good. Not gay love. I love me love.
Rachel 1:08:58
I like me, too. But you can make it bad. You can make a bad meal for bladder cells.
Emily 1:09:03
You just make a love. And that’s all
Rachel 1:09:07
something gray and sad is one liver and onions, liver and onions. That’s what it is. The next morning before john left the house in Westfield. He turned the heat down to 50 degrees. blasted Oregon music through the stereo system.
Emily 1:09:23
That’s the creepiest part me turned on
Rachel 1:09:25
every single light in the house. then drove to the airport. parked in the long term lot bought a one way ticket and started heading west.
Emily 1:09:36
I just picture the organ music as like the music from the beginning of the shining.
Rachel 1:09:53
I’ve never seen it!
Emily 1:09:54
what!!!! we’re gonna watch The Princess Bride for you. You and shining for me.
Rachel 1:10:02
Okay? It’s my favorite. But let’s watch the shining first. So the Princess Bride can be a palate cleanser because Okay, yeah. Okay, fast forward a month later, at Ileana, the theater teacher starts to think it’s fucking weird that Patty has not been around for a while.
Emily 1:10:19
They took you a month.
Rachel 1:10:22
Yeah, he’s like, Huh, well remember john had called cool, but then he’s all Oh, she could say that weird shit to me about her dad wanting to kill her. So December 7 1971 he and another teacher drive to the list house for a welfare check. The neighbors think this is kind of weird. So they call the police. You know, the thing that teachers should have done in the first place? Yeah,
Emily 1:10:45
they’re in the windows of our neighbor’s house.
Rachel 1:10:49
Yeah, that’s it. We haven’t seen them for a while now. They’re these people trying to see what’s going on. The police come and they think a welfare check is a pretty good idea. So police enter the house through the window.
Emily 1:11:00
God I can only imagine the wall of smell that yes,
Rachel 1:11:05
them. Yes. And that is what I wrote. I said the cop senses must have been overwhelmed. So it’s not just the smell. There. There is a weird musty smell that seems to be coming from the ballroom. But also, lights are blazing classical music. The fucking organ music is still blasting. And in the ballroom, they found the bodies of Helen haddie, john and Fred, all of which were loaded and infested with maggots. Eventually, Police also found almost body in the third floor hallway. They probably
Emily 1:11:44
found her body before they got to that page of the letter. Yeah, that they found. They’re like I’m only on page five. We just tell them the grandma.
Rachel 1:11:54
s mom is a fatty fat. So I’ve got a her book made out with a hot dog. How did they know? That that was what that was one time. So police immediately get the FBI involved. And just by wanted posters, tips and all of the resources they could muster. The case goes cold. Meanwhile, john heads for Colorado. We don’t want you here. She says behalf of all Coloradans. No, thank you. No thank you. he changes his name from john list to Bob Clark, and takes a job as a night cook at the Holiday Inn. And he’s actually good at it. He moves up the ranks and ends up at a country club. But by 1977 his dream job as an accountant is calling to him. Not only that, but Lutheran is going to Lutheran Bob meets at divorcee Dolores Miller at a Lutheran Social event. And they start dating seriously. Rhonda Loris read Dolores wrap. He tries to start his own tax consulting business, but he’s not a good accountant. Ironically, he’s a much better cook than he is a CPA. But this guy never says diet his vanilla dreams only on his family
Emily 1:13:27
they never says
Rachel 1:13:36
I apologize apologizing I’m not sorry.
Emily 1:13:40
I like to be is not clever enough to name himself something interesting either. It’s like john list Bob.
Rachel 1:13:46
Yeah, same same numbers. So up, shut up. syllabic li syllable ugly help me. So I same number of syllables. syllable. But I think it was Robert Robert P. Clark is the name he put that he went by Bob.
Emily 1:14:08
I just kept trying to just now think of it’s like john, he tries to rename himself like James notebook.
Rachel 1:14:19
Jeff pad. My name is Jeff. Jeff. So eventually, john, Bob. I mean, I call him john Bob for the remainder of until he gets caught spoilers because I think it’s a redneck name. Sorry redneck listeners john Bob. And you know what, Bob john, he deserves that john. JOHN gets a stable ish accounting job. And then he focuses all of his big white dude energy on Dolores. They buy a condo together in 1981 in Denver, and he starts proposing to her and I say starts proposing to her because remember, she’s a divorcee. She does not want to get married again. So he proposes to her repeat Hey, we’re living together. Can we get married now? Hey, what about now? What about now? Eventually Dolores is rundown and she settles and they get married in 1986. i. Yeah. That’s upsetting to me. Yeah. Yeah. Things are going well at first, john. Bob likes his job and Dolores likes hers. She makes friends with their nosy neighbor, Wanda Flannery. Wanda is maybe my favorite character in the story because she busts in a lot. In 1987, Wanda sees an article of the weekly world news that talks about the murders of the list family, and was like that guy looks a lot like Bob. She even showed the article to Dolores who thought was crazy.
Emily 1:15:45
a loved one that no one does, like
Rachel 1:15:49
murder. Five months after they get married, john Bob loses his job and can’t find another one. Deja vu. Dolores is pretty straightforward and a little salty. And she tells her husband he needs to step up and get a job because their marriage is a partnership. And she depends on him to bring in income to editorializing. But you know, that’s always the conversation going and respect. She even told Wanda that she would leave job if he didn’t find a new job soon. Luckily, question mark. He finds a job in Virginia, and he’ll start working there and Dolores will stay back in Denver and sell the condo and then meet him there. So they buy a new condo in Richmond and things were looking like they’d be okay again. Enter America’s Most Wanted. Well. JOHN Walsh, the real MVP starts encouraging people to catch the bad guys after the tragic loss of his son Adam, which Emily covered a few episodes ago, and may 29 1989. The episode on job lists murder in his family aired. Now, since john creepily cut his face out of all the family photos. They didn’t have a lot to go on. And it had been 18 years. But the show had a forensic artist Frank, Frank bender create a clay bust of john as he would probably look now. He sculpted a hawk like nose, grizzled eyebrows, and horn rimmed glasses because psychologists theorize that john would wear similar frames to the ones that he wore when he was younger. To remind him of his more successful youth. Oh, isn’t that interesting? love
Emily 1:17:38
that. I love that profile?
Rachel 1:17:41
Yep. 22 million people saw this episode, including john Bob himself, and nosey asked Wanda called in her had her son call in or something and told the show that john list is now Bob Clark living in Richmond, Virginia.
Emily 1:17:58
She’s like, I am not just assuming anymore. I am certain. It’s Hey, gotta
Rachel 1:18:03
find it. She’s like,
Emily 1:18:05
I just I’m picturing her like, up against the window of john Bob and Darla his house. Her name is like with a picture. She’s like, like mouthing it to like pointing.
Rachel 1:18:16
She’s like, Oh, you guys are gonna follow up with that leads. Let me get my travel bag. I’ve come in today. I got my go bag. She’s gonna go bag like she’s part of the pocket FBI. Investigators interviewed Dolores who had not seen the episode. But she denied that her husband could be john list, but did say he does look like the picture. And he had a scar behind his ear just like john list. This was enough for an arrest warrant, coupled with the information and when they got married when he showed up all that stuff. And john list was finally apprehended on June 1 1989. Yes, at this point. I am not sure if john is delusional or confident because they match his fingerprints to john list. But he’s insistent that No, no, he’s Bob Clark. I’m not john, what if he fixed it his pocket plan? He never deviates from the stupid.
Emily 1:19:14
Oh my god. The only part of his plan wasn’t like burning off his fingertips or something.
Rachel 1:19:20
Yeah, seriously. But he’s extradited to New Jersey anyway. And charged with five counts of first degree murder and sentenced to five consecutive life terms. Whoo, hallelujah. But this Becker liked prison, spent his time praying and writing and even playing those fucking war games with friends. And rose he self published a book called collateral damage, which I had read because fuck that guy. Oh my god.
Emily 1:19:52
At least he won’t get any of the proceeds from it.
Rachel 1:19:54
Yeah, seriously. He died of a heart attack in 2008. He was 82 years old, no one came to claim his body. Ironically, the 19 room mansion that john list owned with Helen had a Tiffany skylight worth about $100,000, which would have been worth more than enough to get him out of financial trouble. But I honestly think he would have ended up murdering his family anyway. Because this guy, he couldn’t, he could not be successful, and felt that the only way to get out of a bad situation was to kill his family and start fresh. And I honestly think it probably would have happened with the Loris to lose his job dropped like that.
Emily 1:20:39
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think even if he would have been like, hey, that ceiling looks fancy and like sold it. They would have just burned through $100,000 eventually, and it would have just been a delayed effect, you know? Yeah. And I think you’re right. I think though Dolores seems a little more independent or like, sure of herself than Helen. Yeah, so she might have been all like fuck it out of my house. He lost another job. Yeah,
Rachel 1:21:07
I mean, she’s pretty mentally stable and self sufficient. Like she had been more of a modern woman I guess. Yeah. Then Helen who had been very much a product of the times
Emily 1:21:18
got a few matches she’s like, I don’t want to get married again then she finally caves and it’s family Annihilator john list
Rachel 1:21:25
and this is why I said though those 18
Emily 1:21:29
yeah the Lord
Rachel 1:21:31
that that’s the horrible fucking story of john list
Emily 1:21:34
amazingly well done like so good. Thank you. I it’s one of my favorite stories saying favorite feels like the wrong word but like it’s just a really interesting story. The irony behind it all Yeah, the creepy like I can just picture the way the house was when he left
Rachel 1:21:55
Yeah. And the fact that he got away with it for 18 years to me makes a such an interesting story. But fuck that guy. He
Emily 1:22:02
got caught. Oh, yeah. Well, did you hear there’s um, I guess the neighbors did also something like they started noticing the lights. Yeah, by one like going out in the
Rachel 1:22:14
house though. Like a creepy,
Emily 1:22:16
like, all the lights are on all the time. But
Rachel 1:22:20
yeah, and then they just burnt out one at a time, which is very creepy detail. So I’m glad you brought that up.
Emily 1:22:25
Oh, that’s so creepy. so creepy. Wow. That was so good.
Rachel 1:22:30
Thank you. If you want to hear more from us, like we said at the top of the episode, we have a Patreon patreon.com slash horrible history where we’re going to start putting out weekly content and videos for $10 and members can also find us on social media at horrible history pod on Instagram and Tic Tac. Send us your story recommendations because we fucking love them. You can also email them horrible history podcasts at you@gmail.com gmail.com. All my hyped up energy from the john lift story
Emily 1:23:05
is like I know I’m glad today at this end.
Rachel 1:23:08
I just did all the BS. Do you ever recorded a kid? I’m just like, let me talk. I’ll let you say that. This is my podcast now. I’m gonna put this table Yeah, we must play Monopoly to the thanks for listening.
Emily 1:23:39
Hopefully you’re horrified.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai